Ep 36 | Fear Isn’t the Enemy of Financial Freedom. It’s the Shortcut (feat. Farnoosh Torabi)
We spend so much time trying to avoid fear. But what if fear was actually the fastest route to clarity and confidence with your money?
In this episode, Priya sits down with best-selling author and So Money host Farnoosh Torabi to challenge the idea that fear holds us back. Instead, they explore how fear can be a powerful guide in your financial life—especially when you're facing a big decision, having hard conversations with your partner, or questioning whether you're doing "enough."
Farnoosh shares stories from her own career and personal life, offers a reframe on fear that actually feels empowering, and gives tactical advice for using fear to make better, more aligned money decisions. If you’ve ever felt stuck or scared to take the next step, this one’s for you.
Tune into this episode to hear:
Follow Priya Malani:
LinkedIn | Instagram | Youtube | Stash Wealth
THE STUFF OUR LAWYERS WANT US TO SAY: Stash Wealth is a Registered Investment Advisor. Content presented is for informational and educational purposes only and is not intended to make an offer or solicitation for any specific securities product, service, or strategy. Consult with a qualified investment adviser (that's us) before implementing any strategy. Investing involves risk, including the loss of principal. Past performance does not guarantee future results. There…we said it.
Transcription
Priya: You moved across the river. You left me.
Farnoosh: I'm sorry. I know, my God. But it was a, a confluence of things. As one realizes, and I think this might be interesting for your audience. You know, I lived in New York City for 20, almost 20 years. Wouldn't change a thing. But once I started to have kids and they were out of diapers and now we're like navigating schools and we're living. You know what we thought originally was like this lovely part of town, but then when you have kids, like the noise, the traffic, all that doesn't it, it really does start to affect you. And I say that there's this diminish, there's what do you call it, diminishing returns.
Priya: Mm-hmm.
Farnoosh: For some people living in New York, it's very expensive always, but you kind of make it work you like. Live with six roommates. You know, you eat tuna, fish out of a can for as long as you can, but then when you have kids, like shit gets real. Yeah. And the logistics and conveniences of life. That didn't bother you before. Like whatever. I'll just schlep it on the train. If the train breaks down, I'll bring a book. But like if you're with a kid that the equation is different. And so for us totally. We were experiencing like what I call these diminishing returns of living in this city that we still love, but it just wasn't serving us. The ROI wasn't there where it was for us, you know, for two decades. So anyway, that's a long time jersey
Priya: Lucky to have you.
Farnoosh: Yeah. Thank you.
Priya: Well, I'm very excited to have you on today and I'm gonna jump right in. We have so much amazing stuff to cover with regards to your book. So Farish,
Farnoosh: so Priya.
Priya: A lot of people in their thirties, specifically my audience, are facing big life milestones, right? Buying their first home, starting a family, navigating next steps in their career. And one might say that all those moments are full of financial fear. Yes. In your book, healthy State of Panic, you highlight fear as the exact tool you need.
Farnoosh: Mm-hmm.
Priya: To get ahead, which I think is super interesting because most of us just tend to avoid fear. Can you start maybe by just giving us the big picture idea of how someone can use fear? To their advantage, their
Farnoosh: Absolutely. And I'll do one other thing, which is just to take a even bigger step back and talk about why fear is useful. You said that often we avoid it, we run away from it. That's absolutely true. We live in a culture that I don't think is just the American culture. I think it's just the way that you deal with fear wherever you live, it's universal. That fear is considered to be a bad feeling. It's a feeling to be embarrassed about to be. A weakness. Shamed, right? It's a weakness. There are many, many books on leadership and money and how to even, you know, just be a badass. That's like, you can't be fearful. You gotta be fearless, right? All the way back to the Great Depression. Remember that famous saying, if you're nothing but fear itself, but like we were in a depression, if you weren't afraid, were you even alive, right? You didn't know how you were gonna put food on the table. You didn't know how you were going to. Get the next job. And so fear is normal. Fear is natural. And I, for one, have a very intimate relationship with it.
As the daughter of immigrants, it's all in the book. I don't need to go into it on the podcast, but I grew up very much afraid almost by design. My parents used fear. They've admitted on the record, to kind of keep me quote unquote safe. You know, that they didn't really know how else to. Best parent me in the world. That was very foreign to them. And also my mother was extremely young. There were language barriers. It was the eighties. A lot of fearful headlines about kidnappings and oh my gosh, the list goes on. And so they would tell me things, whether they were true or not. Like if you, you know, are in a mall, for example, and you disappear from us, someone will steal you. You know? Or if you're at lunch at school and someone shares their snack with you, you will get sick. And so I just became this really defensive little girl that had a lot of anxiety. But fast forward to my adult years, I harbored that fear. I carried that fear into my twenties and my thirties. But somehow along the way, I learned how to have a relationship with fear, because I think what happened was I realized the more that I ran away from it, the worst things got.
Priya: Mm.
Farnoosh: And why? Because again, fear is personal. Fear tells a very personal story. When you're afraid of something, and I'm not talking about spiders or like being in an airplane, but when you're afraid of making a big life choice that involves money, that involves your career, that involves relationships, and you're feeling fear, perhaps it's because it's that voice inside of you that says, hold on. We care about this. Let's examine. Let's, mm-hmm. Take it slow. Let's ask more questions. Let's figure out if this is really aligned with who we are and what we wanna do. That is what the fear is telling you. At least that's what I want people to trust in that fear, in that moment, so that they don't do what a lot of us end up doing is ignoring it, feeling like it's not there, and then going and doing that thing, pretending, pretending. In that moment, we've lost sight of who we are, what our values are, and we will probably make a stupid decision that we will regret because we weren't doing it in touch with our feelings.
I mean, not to get woo woo, but like there was actually a study that the year I came out with this book in 2023, there was a. Giant study across multiple universities that found that those who view these quote unquote negative feelings like fear and sadness and anger as bad, are less happy. Then those who look at these words feel these feelings and, and even just have like a neutral relationship to these feelings. Or maybe they do think that there's a positive in them, but they're happier. And the simple answer is because they are more in tune with their emotions. They hold space for all their feelings, and therefore they walk through life a little bit more, I think, together. And. With a deeper understanding of who they are and where they came from and what better place from, what better place to make these big life decisions, right? We talk about money, not just in the context of dollars and cents, but like is it aligned with what you care about? And if you're feeling fear, like maybe we should sit and ask that fearsome questions to decide whether this is the thing that I wanna do. And even if it still is, you can still do it scared, but you're doing it equipped.
An understanding of what you care about. So when you go to, you know, start that new job or take on that new investment or buy that house, you will be more vigilant and aware of what to protect. Does that make sense?
Priya: Absolutely. So well said.
Farnoosh: 40 years to figure this out and then I wrote the book.
Priya: Such a good book. Yeah. I mean it's easy to say embrace fear, but what you're saying is it truly is a signal.
Farnoosh: It's a signal. People will say to me, this sounds like easy to do, but in actuality it's hard. And I say, and yet all these years of your life, you have been told to be fearless. That's somehow easy. You're telling me it's easier to be fearless than to just feel the fear and ask it some questions and reorient your mindset to go, this might have some information for me that could be useful. Right. Like, I will just flip the script on you. You know, it's, it's not easy to be fearless. It's not working for a lot of us if you haven't noticed, right. Like every, the world's a scary place.
Priya: and you can still ask yourself these questions through the fear and end up doing it scared anyway.
Farnoosh: Yes. But at least you've done the, you've respected yourself through the process.
Priya: Right, right. Paying attention to the fear. So, okay. So if one of my listeners are like, bring this down, like make it really, really tactical. If one of my listeners is staring at a scary financial decision, maybe putting in an offer on a home or the scariest, deciding whether or not to have a kid. Yeah. If you could sit across from them in that moment, like what is the very first thing. You would say? Yeah. What would you offer to them?
Farnoosh: Well, one of the tips in the book in that specific chapter, fear of Money, I mean, there's so many tools you can use in that moment to feel more at peace with whatever you're facing, but one is to use your example. If it's like buying a home, which is like the biggest purchase most of us will ever endeavor. Do I have all the information I need? What do I still need to learn? Is my fear coming from a place of unknowing? Because fear loves to thrive in the unknown, in the lack of literacy. That's where fear lives, right? So what are there things that I need to go figure out to feel more at peace with this decision? That's number one. Number two is let's say you have all the information and you're still feeling afraid. So then maybe the question is, what's the worst thing that could happen? What's the worst thing that could happen? You buy this house and you realize this was an absolute mistake. I made a huge financial mistake. Well, you know, you're still breathing, so that's good. You're still alive. The world hasn't ended. But I understand that you wanna maybe reverse this or change course, and that's okay. Like you're allowed, first of all, to make a mistake. Of this scale. Lots of people do. But the work now that you must do to be able to, and like your heart's, like you gotta buy the house. You gotta buy the house, still buy the house. Even if the worst case scenario happens, fine, go buy the house. But at least do the work of playing out that worst case scenario and figuring out now preemptively what you would do in that moment. What is your plan? B and C.
And we moved to Montclair, New Jersey from Brooklyn. We had, I felt all the answers we needed, but there's still a lot that you don't know that you can't possibly know until you go and do the thing. And you know, there's so much that's not within our control. So that's why I say like, you're allowed to make these big life decisions. It might backfire and it may have nothing to do with you. It's just life lifes. So you go, and in our minds, we knew that this could backfire. Maybe God forbid it was COVID. Like, what if one of us gets sick or disabled can't work, income drops, or we just don't like it. The neighborhood's not, we're not jiving the school district. Maybe we got sold a false bill of goods. I don't know. And now we're really reconsidering. It's like, okay, so you make a decision and you can make another decision. Remember that? the best thing you can do now before you make decision A, is to kind of explore what the options may be for you in the event that you do wanna jump ship. Can you rent? Can you move to another town? Do you have enough in savings so that if you're miserable. Moving takes time that you can continue to live there or maybe not, and that your finances could cover those extra expenses of the transition and, you know, figuring things out. And so that's what I mean by, you know, when the fear arrives, kind of internally asking questions, that's like putting a mirror up to your face. Like, what would you Priya do in that moment? Don't wait for it to happen.
Priya: Yeah, that's so comforting. It's such a simple principle, but remembering that most decisions are reversible and by by simply playing out the worst case scenario, you get a sense of comfort about what. You would need to do if you decided that that was the wrong decision?
Farnoosh: Yeah.
Priya: Wow. And, and you know, fear of money is sort of an amalgamation of many other fears. We fear making financial decisions we're afraid of failure and we're afraid of rejection. And so the fear of money, I, I actually placed it strategically in the book, in the middle because fear, at least the fears that I introduce in the book, they kind of. Like build on each other. So it starts, the book starts with the fear of rejection, I think is the number, is the first chapter, and then it's loneliness. And then it's, you know, then there's FOMO, and then there's the fear of failure, and then there's the fear of money.
And so you kind of understand that fear grows with you. Like when you're young, you don't have a fear of money. Most of us don't, 'cause we don't even know what it is. We don't really have the same stresses that our parents may be having. We're not fearing how to pay the mortgage if we're lucky, right? So what we do experience
fear of failure, or fear of rejection, fear of loneliness. And so then as we get older, those fears don't go away. And then introducing money. You know, I think part of why people assume they can't make a bad financial decision is because they're afraid of looking like a failure. Failing themselves too.
So I wanna let people, I wanna give you that permission to say, you know, don't go in blind. I'm not saying I'm not here to make, promote impulse financial moves, but if there, if you aren't scared ahead of a big financial decision, you're not doing it right. You should be scared. 'cause when you're scared, you're asking yourself hopefully the right questions.
Priya: Mm. Fair enough. Fair enough. So you also talk about the fear of rejection, and I wanna apply this for the couples out there listening. So can you talk a little bit about how the fear of rejection may show up in couples trying to merge their money, their money mindsets? Like if someone's listening right now and they're holding back from starting that conversation with their partner because they don't wanna get shut down or told no, like what are some of the things they should be thinking about? To help them get started.
Farnoosh: Yeah. The fear of rejection is so universal. It's like primal, you know, we don't wanna be. Out of the group, so to speak. You know, because back in the stone ages, back in the Flintstone era, like that would mean getting eaten by a wooly mammoth. Like acceptance was survival. And so that primal fear has endured to modern society. It has modernized, but it shows up in like. To your point, like the discourse between you and your partner around money, will they think I am too spendy? Will they think I'm frivolous? Will they think I don't know anything? But when the fear of rejection pops up, I think a good question to ask is, am I fearing the rejection from this person or that, you know, for myself, like, am I afraid that I'm gonna feel stupid and dumb?
I see. Let's take a step back. Like this person, you've, you've created sort of a monster out of this partner of yours before really having the conversation. You've assumed a lot, and when you're assuming a lot, it's maybe because there's this underlying fear that you don't think you are enough. You don't think that you have what it takes, and that's the, your partner can't help you with that. That's on you to strengthen. Also to know that in the context of financial conversations and this fear of rejection, that everybody has a money story. And when we fear money when we fear money in the context of money, relationships, or sorry, the context of relationships, it would be really valuable for everybody to figure out each person's money story because.
Money narratives as we know, they determine a lot of like how we end up relating to money today as adults. And so you may be in a relationship assuming a lot about your partner, like they are not maybe as this with their money as you are like generous or helpful or organized, and you just assume that it's because like they're trying to annoy you. You know? Or like, why can't they make this change? They're not doing it for me. Because maybe it's deep seated. It's deep rooted, right? It's because they grew up with, and in an environment that, that taught them that, that, that modeled this for them, or they're doing it in retaliation of an experience that they had growing up. Maybe they had a parent who was really terribly frivolous with spending, you know, maybe they grew up in a household that did declare bankruptcy. Then as an adult, they sort of took the opposite role of that, where they became extremely tight with money. So when you fear rejection around money in your relationship and people are usually both feeling it at the same time, yeah, you, they're not gonna understand me. We'll get to understand each other and not just the today part of the story, but as you were growing up and as recently as maybe a few years before you got together. Recency bias is also a big part of why we have certain relationships with money. If we were the sort that got outta college during the great recession and didn't get a job right away and live with our parents for five years and never was able to buy a home, I mean, maybe, yeah. In your late thirties fees. You have sort of a disdain for the financial system. You don't trust bank accounts, you don't trust things. And like that's not just an attitude that came out of nowhere, that there's a story behind that. So take that time to really learn these things about each other and then getting into the numbers will be a lot simpler.
I hope. I think it that's how it was in our relationship. You know, before we got into, what's your credit score, what's in your bank account? What's your paycheck? We spent time really observing a lot of our behaviors, learning about each other, how we were raised, single mom, immigrant parents, you know, and so that is important context, which informs how people end up managing their mind. It's not an excuse, you know, they always say trauma is not an excuse. It's context.
Priya: So brilliant. There are about a hundred good nuggets in what you just said. We always sort of seem to think everybody else has it. Figure it out and you know, we, there's something that nobody knows anything
Farnoosh: and nobody knows that's, well, you know, title of this episode, nobody knows anything. People are just really good at faking it sometimes.
Priya: Exactly, exactly. Studies show that we inherit our money ways from as early as childhood, and our parents didn't have anything figured out. Some we're all coming to the table a little, a little effed up and conversation. But you, you brought up some interesting questions like what's your credit score? So when did you and your partner, when did you guys get into that kind of stuff? When do you think is the right time to start those pointed questions?
Farnoosh: First date? No, I'm kidding. I mean, some people will go there and I would love to be a fly on the wall on on that date, but I think naturally it should come up before you're about to maybe go in on a big financial move together. For us, it was moving in, literally moving in together. For others, it might be when you start to share in some expenses that are big. Maybe it's a pet, maybe it's like annual vacations. Yeah. I mean, gosh, we could do a whole other episode. You know, there's this whole internet. Trend right now. This like communication around money and dating of like women. You should find a guy that's gonna pay for everything, including your lifestyle. 'cause that's true masculinity. And I feel so bad for these guys that we're reducing them to this one responsibility. And if they don't fulfill that, like. They're doomed. Forget. Right? That is a whole nother
Priya: episode.
Farnoosh: Yeah, that's a whole other episode. So, and it's fascinating. I say this, assuming people listening are not of that camp, you know, that like they do understand the importance of, of transparency around money in a relationship, of being curious and needing to know what your partner earns and you know, what's, what's their debt situation like from college. All of that. So naturally, I think a good time to bring a lot of that up is when you are about to get. Into some money stuff, you know, and it's not the day before your wedding, it's, it comes up a lot sooner.
Priya: So many people wait way too long. We completely agree with you at Stash, Walt. It's, it's when you move in together is usually that time when these conversations actually arise very organically. And that allows for just an easier segue into some difficult questions,
Farnoosh: right? And if you're not the couple that moves in together first, that goes right. Remember when that was taboo? Like, oh my God, you're gonna live together. That's interesting. So maybe you don't do that, but then there's still opportunities to talk about money. It could be like on your one year anniversary, you know, when you feel like the relationship is going to the next level. Then next level stuff is money conversations.
Priya: Yeah. And because money touches everything, you don't even have to approach it in the beginning, in the first few questions from a, uh, more tactical perspective. It can be more qualitative and around the soft stuff.
Farnoosh: And, and just keep your eyes and ears open. Take notes, you know, and find better times to don't like, you know, ambush your partner. But I think just you can learn a lot from just observing and not to. Conclude and come to conclusions on your own about those observations. But just, you know, be smart. And if you start seeing patterns, then that's when you bring it up. Like, I've noticed that you, uh, keep a lot of cash in your apartment or I noticed that, you're, your mom calls and asks for money a lot. Is this something that you have, do you have a formal like arrangement around this? Because often in married couples, you, you realize, like one partner might say, I didn't realize that we'd be, we'd have a third person in this marriage that we're supporting like a, like an aging parent. And that's increasingly becoming normal. But just to have an awareness of that so you can feel like you're doing it together and not like one person's doing it behind your back while you're married.
Priya: That's an excellent example of a finance question that doesn't immediately. Occur to you as a finance question. Talking about taking care of aging parents is an amazing segue for a very colorful conversation between most couples. Can you finish this sentence for me?
Farnoosh: Fear is actually, fear is actually a tool, a helpful tool.
Priya: Love it. I can also say fear. As a friend, I feel like I am there. Not everyone is yet, so fear is a
Farnoosh: friend.
Priya: I will start with a tool, but if you really like, wanna know how I feel, it's that fear is a friend.
I have a lot to learn. I thought about getting a tattoo that said do it scared. 'cause I just feel like everything I do as an entrepreneur, I am shit scared.
Farnoosh: Yeah. Well someone gets, you know, I, I interviewed a serial entrepreneur one time recently, a billionaire who's like, started like nine companies. He is like in his seventies now. He said that many people make the mistake that entrepreneurs are fearless and risk tolerant. He said, I'm here to tell you we are afraid all the time. The difference is, is that we know how to calculate for risk. We do the work. And I interpret that as also the work of understanding your fears, right? When you're assessing risk, how you have to include your fears in that assessment. That calculation is not just, you know, what's the probability that it's gonna reign. It's also what's the probability that I will be okay when it rains because I am equipped and if I'm not equipped, how do I get equipped? Because it probably will rain, it probably will rain. I better get an extra umbrella.
Priya: Love. That goes back to your original point, like bringing it full circle, playing out the worst case scenario, coming up with your plan B and C and, and that bringing it almost takes away some of the power of the fear. Not to say that you should shy away from it, but it allows you to understand the fear
Farnoosh: in fear in the, in the passenger seat as opposed to being in the driver's seat. You're driving that, that.
Priya: Excellent way to put it. Yeah. That is a perfect note to end on. This was great Farish. I love chatting with you. We'll have to have you back on anytime. Congratulations on all the success of your podcast.
Farnoosh: Thank you. Thank you.
Priya: I do have one more question before for we let for you go. So we always end with a segment called Best Bite because I'm a huge foodie and I'm always looking for a good recommendation. And since you're local for me, this is gonna be even more fun 'cause I can get there asap. And so what I wanna know is what's the best thing you've eaten recently? Where do I need to go and what do I need to order?
Farnoosh: All right, I have the perfect place. You'll have to come to Montclair for it. But you're familiar with Chef Morimoto, the Iron Chef.
Priya: Definitely, yes.
Farnoosh: Well, he's opened a new restaurant in Montclair, called MM by Morimoto. I actually got the o opportunity to go and preview the meals, meet the chef. I host a local podcast in town called the Montclair Pod, so they had a whole media like night to try all the amazing foods. Everything's great, but the best is the Wagyu steak, which is just cooked to perfection. I, I hope it does well, I wanna, I wanna mention it 'cause I, that particular location where it is in Montclair has had a sort of a revolving door of restaurants.
Priya: Okay.
Farnoosh: I think it's just a hard, it's a big space, you know, restaurants, the margins aren't great. So I think, if anyone can do it, it's Chef Moori Moto. He's such a legend. So if anyone's in town and wants, it's not like just a casual place though, I will say you gotta really go for a special occasion because it's, it can be pricey.
Priya: Okay. You are speaking my language. I am such a red meat eater, so I am gonna have to, my
Farnoosh: cocktails are divines.
Priya: Even better. Even better. Oh my gosh. Well, it's going in the rotation. I'm gonna get it on the list and I have to get out there soon before I let you go. Where can people find more Farnoosh?
Farnoosh: Well, you can listen to So Money three days a week on your favorite podcast player and we have a so many members club. You can learn more@somanymembers.com.
Priya: amazing. And of course, don't forget to grab a copy of a healthy state of panic.
Farnoosh: Yes. Let's, let's talk about the book. God bless the book.
Priya: Yeah. That, you know, when you write a book and then time goes by, you're like, oh yeah, the book, you know, when Meanwhile it was like your entire brain and life for three years. But yeah, thank you. And it's so much. It's your fourth book. It's my fourth book. My.
Priya: Yeah. Need to go grab the whole collection, far. Thank you so much for joining us today. This was awesome! To everyone, listening, if you love this episode, please send it to a friend who's navigating a big financial decision and maybe letting fear hold them back. That's how we grow the show and keep bringing on, powerhouse guests like Farish. Also, in case you missed it, we recently won the Wealth Management Industry Award for Best Investor Podcast of the year, which would not have happened without all of you tuning in, sharing these episodes and joining the conversation. So I am truly, truly grateful.
Thank you all and we'll see you next time.
